Word for word Bible discussion between Bobby Richardson and a Jehovah's Witness

What follows is the dialogue as it has evolved - responses & follow ups inserted

Fred: Hello, Glad you are back at home safe and sound. Someday, I would like to pack an RV and just go. Must be nice! I would like to take this time to summarize your response to the original two questions. I do not want to put words in your mouth, so please correct me if I'm wrong. 1. Can God (Jesus)be tempted to sin? Answer. NO, he cannot be tempted into sinning.

Bobby: Thanks. We are glad to be back. It is really nice to just cruise along without being under the gun, driving and pushing yourself, and pull in somewhere and bed down when ever you get ready. However, for some reason, I just could not "quit driving", this last trip, when I did stop to lay down a time or two. Soooo, I just got back up and kept on going. And, for yet some other reason, I wasn't driving in a daze, either. I guess, God felt that we needed to get on back home sooner, rather than later. At any rate, my answer to your question, "Can God (Jesus) be tempted to sin?" is: He can be presented with any sort of temptation, but will never succomb to committing any kind of sin because He is Holy, in Him is no sin AND, furthermore, it is IMPOSSIBLE for Him to sin because He really "is" Jehovah Incarnate. And, we all know sin is what got lucifer and his minions (angels) kicked out of Heaven. Therefore, **IF** the Incarnate Christ had actually been one of satan's former collegues (an angel), satan sure got a big surprise when another angel out did him in the wilderness that day, didn't he? Satan knew precisely who Jesus "really" was, but still thought he could snooker Him. But, God didn't give an angel His Glory and Power, and send him on an errand down to Earth for Him. He did it Himself. The reference to "the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God" is to the tabernacle of flesh ... the "begotten" (NOT created) supernaturally conceived, and born, Incarnate Christ. That's my position. Please state your position, and explain it.

Fred: Muchas gracias for clarifying. My position essentially is that Jehovah and Jesus are two separate independent agents/persons. Some of the passage in the Bible (that are not subject to translational issues) on which I base that idea are: John 8:54 in which Jesus says"If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me: of whom ye say,he is your God." It is clear from the Old Testatment who the Pharisees believed was their God: Jehovah. Jesus even makes the distinction between he honoring himself, and Jehovah (the God of Pharisees)honoring him(Jesus). It also shows that the Jews equated the Father with "Jehovah". I take this text at face value.

Bobby: If you will, let me use my Clark Kent/Superman analogy here. Jesus often spoke of the Father as if the Father where someone other than Himself who was way off in another galaxy or solar system. And, I can see how a person who interprets the words of Jesus "literally" could be persuaded to believe such. Jesus was unlike any man who has ever lived. While He possessed the Glory and Power of Deity, He went about as a lowly servant. He had a "human" nature as a result of actually being born of a woman. And, He had a "Divine" nature as a result of Him being God manifested in the flesh. Also, Jesus is the template (so to speak) for all Christians to pattern themselves after. And, as a result, He said and did many things for our benefit. I am NOT saying Jesus was deceitful, nor that He lied ... far from it. It's just that He could (and did) speak, act and function as any "ordinary" man. And, He also could (and did) speak, act and function as Almighty God while here on Earth. Those who have ears to hear, hears what the Spirit saith, and aren't trying to fuel a flawed, man-made, pre-conceived agenda, come to the understanding as to who Jesus "really" is. Then, it is up to them what they do from that point. At any rate, since you mentioned John 8:54, let's take the time to go over John Chapters 8 and 10, and see what all Jesus said concerning who He "really" is and what those who heard Him said and how they reacted. A whole lot could be said, but I'll just try to hit some of the high spots ...

John 8 (Here's a setting where I refer to Jesus' Clark Kent/Superman type speech throughout the discourse)

1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? (I don't believe these dudes weren't interested in the rule of law or justice. They only wanted to tempt Jesus, and to try and catch Him in a snare, as they often tried)

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. (As a side note, since the woman was caught in the "act" of adultery, some have suggested Jesus wrote on the ground, "Where is the man?" While we don't know what Jesus wrote, that certainly is a thought provoking suggestion, isn't it?)

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. (The unbelievers understood the significance of the testimony of two "men")

18I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. (Jesus did testify and bear His own witness. But, there were supernatural things which happened in the presence of everyone ... which they certainly couldn't deny ... which Jesus affirmed was "another" witness from the one they claimed to children of). However, the Father is an omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, INVISIBLE Spirit ... which does NOT have flesh and bones. AND, while the Father is an omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, INVISIBLE Spirit throughout the universe, He was residing in what I refer to as the tabernacle of flesh standing before them ... this I can Scripturally prove.

19Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. (The records will prove that the hipocritical religious zealots of that day thought of Jesus as being the illegitimate son of Mary and Joseph ... NOT their long awaited Messiah).

20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. (Any time Jesus affirmed His Deity, I never recall Him ever saying, or even suggesting, that He was actually Michael the arch-angel.)

24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (Jesus' witness and affirmation of His Deity really got under their skin ... so to speak)

25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. (Although, He had proclaimed His Deity, they still did not understand that the one standing before them was the embodiment of the omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, INVISIBLE Spirit ... the Father)

28Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

29And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. (More Clark Kent/Superman type speech, as is found throughout this discourse)

30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: (Here's the verse you referenced. And, the Greek word that was translated "honoureth" is doxazo {dox-ad'-zo}, which means:

1) to think, suppose, be of opinion
2) to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate
3) to honour, do honour to, hold in honour
4) to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour
a) to impart glory to something, render it excellent
b) to make renowned, render illustrious
1) to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledged

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (Some get real offensive when Jesus ... or those, like myself, who embrace the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine ... declare His Deity)

59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. (Keep this matter about taking up stones to cast at him tucked away, and let's take a look at John Chapter 10)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

John 10 (Keep in mind Jesus' Clark Kent/Superman type speech throughout the discourse)
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. (it would be impossible to kill God, who is an omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, INVISIBLE Spirit ... which does NOT have flesh and bones. However, although, the humanity of Jesus did die ... the Deity did NOT. And, it certainly wasn't because there was blood coursing through those Holy veins that brought Him out of the tomb on the third day, either.)

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. (interesting point that Jesus made about laying His life down AND taking it up again, isn't it?)

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. (the miraculous things which Jesus referred to are, indeed, a testimony concerning His Deity)

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. (Here we are again with stones to be thrown at Him)

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (They weren't confused as to whether or not Jesus was declaring His Deity. As a matter of fact, they acknowledged it ... and rejected it, too.)

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (Remember my bucket in the lake analogy?)

39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42 And many believed on him there.

Fred's response to the above: Bobby: I�m sure you understand that the entire passages you cite and easily be harmonized using the Bible to prove the separate identity of Jesus apart from Jehovah.

Bobby's follow up: What you call a "separate identity" is actually the distinction of that of being an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, invisible, Spirit which is NOT restricted to time, space or a geographical location, and that of being a living, breathing, human being (who, by the way, knew the very thoughts and intents of the hearts and minds of others, and who could actually walk on water, and walk through walls and enter rooms without using a door, etc.). Furthermore, despite having been effectively indoctrinated to believe in separate and distinct "persons", myself, after many years of diligent study, research and prayer, God brought me out of that belief system and enabled me to Scripturally prove the omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, invisible, Spirit ... GOD ..., who manifested Himself to mankind in various ways, is only one in person. AND, that, when He took upon Himself a body for about 33 years, He also became a partaker of our nature ... only, without the "fallen" (sin) nature, of course ... which means He was BOTH God and man ... human AND Divine. And, He had TWO natures which He displayed at various times ... when He spoke, acted and functioned in the capacity of Almighty God and also that of a man ... the Clark Kent manner ... which was done for our example to follow, or to pattern ourselves after.

Fred's response continued: None of the readings require the Oneness doctrine. As you know, historically and Biblically, the ancient Isrealites and never believed that God himself was the Messiah, but the chosen One by God. For example, the Messianic Psalm at 110:1,2 shows that Jehovah is the LORD, and �my Lord" is the Messiah.

Bobby's follow up: A literal interpretation of Psalms 110:1-2 is necessary to come to the conclusion that Jehovah is the LORD (ALL CAPS), but the Messiah is an inferior subordinate person who is NOT the LORD (ALL CAPS). And, to do that, a person ends up with an inferior subordinate person sitting in the geographical place at the "right hand" of an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, invisible Spirit ... an absolute impossibility.

Psalm 110
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

"Hear, 0 Israel: the Lord our God is ONE LORD." Deuteronomy 6:4. This commandment given to Israel is confirmed in the New Testament (Mark 12:29) and must be obeyed by all Christians today. "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." James 2:19. "God is a Spirit..." John 4:24. "No man hath seen God at anytime..." John 1:18. God, the invisible Spirit, has only revealed Himself to man by manifestations.

Although there were various "theophanies" (manifestations) of God before the Incarnation (as the burning bush, pillar of fire and cloud, etc.), the Scriptures teach that there are three offices in which God has manifested Himself to mankind. God manifested Himself as the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Spirit (Comforter) living in the hearts of believers as the "earnest" (part) of our inheritance for the entire duration of the New Testament Church Dispensation until that which is perfect is come .... which, according to John 7:39, Acts 1:4-5 and Acts 2:1-4, began on the Day of Pentecost in Acts Chapter 2 ... following the departure (ascension) of the resurrected body of Jesus Christ.

Without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Hebrews 9:22. So by His plan (Word), God, the invisible Spirit, prepared Himself a body, born of the virgin Mary, and dwelt among us. "And the Word (which was God) was made flesh, and dwelt among us..." John 1:14. This "flesh" was the only "begotten" Son of God. Paul said that the Son (flesh) is the image of the invisible God. Colossians 1 :13-15 ... the "express image of His person (singular)." Hebrews 1:3.

The body (flesh), the Lamb/image of God ... the Son, as He was to be known ... was in the mind of God from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8) and prophesied as early as Genesis 3:15. Hundreds of years later the prophet Isaiah prophesied," ... Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel ... which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US." Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23. "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty GOD, The everlasting FATHER, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6. To Joseph the angel said, "...thou shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people FROM THEIR SIN (NOT in their sin) ... and he called His name JESUS." Matthew 1:21-25.

Fosset�s Bible Encyclopedia declares that Jesus means Jehovah-Salvation, or Jehovah is become Saviour.

The name of God was not fully revealed in the Old Testament. God was referred to in many ways. The abbreviated form of His name was given as YHWH (known as the Tetragrammaton). It is regarded by some to be too holy to be uttered or even spelled. YHWH was an abbreviation which could not even be pronounced. Vowels had to be added in order to become Yahweh in Hebrew ... and Jehovah in English (Strong's # 03068) ... which was translated in the King James Version of the Holy Bible 6510 times as LORD (all CAPS), 4 times as God (Capital "G") and 4 times as Jehovah ... followed by a descriptive term.

The following examples are how YHWH (Jehovah - LORD) was used with descriptive terms:

Jehovah-Jireh - The Lord provides. Gen. 22:14.
Jehovah-Rapha - The Lord that healeth. Exod. 15:26.
Jehovah-Nissi - The Lord is our banner. Exod. 17:15.
Jehovah-Shalom - The Lord our peace. Judges 6:24.
Jehovah-Ra-ah - The Lord is my shepherd. Ps. 23:1.
Jehovah-Tsidkenu - The Lord our righteousness. Jer. 23:6.
Jehovah-Shammah - The Lord is present. Ezek. 48:35.

When God prepared Himself a body to redeem man from sin, He then revealed His name ... JESUS - Jehovah-Salvation.

(**IF** only those who accuse the "oneness" people who embrace the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine of being "JESUS ONLY," fully understood! And they could **IF** they would only lay aside their biased indoctrination, traditions, preconceived ideals, and theories ... and diligently pray about this and independently study their Bible with an open heart and an open mind ... that's how it was revealed through the scriptures to me, anyway.)

When the time came for the "new thing" that God had promised in Isaiah 43:19, He revealed His name to Joseph and Mary when He dispatched it to them by the angel. It is ... JESUS ... which literally means, "Jehovah-Salvation," or "Jehovah is become Saviour." Jesus was more than a prophet ... more than an angel ... more than a created being ... and more than any inferior subordinate person theory which evolved centuries AFTER Christ. The name, "JESUS," is the greatest name that has ever been uttered by mortal tongue. YHWH was just an abbreviation ... a prelude ... a substitute just like the substitute that took Isaac's place upon the altar of sacrifice until the "real" Lamb of God came. Later on God did reveal His name to man when he dispatched it by an angel to Joseph and Mary to give to the Christ Child. Jesus, was NOT just a name that Joseph and Mary just woke up one morning and decided on.

The angel announced, "For unto you is born this day ... a Saviour, which is CHRIST THE LORD." Luke 2:11. Throughout the Old Testament God is also called the Lord. Deuteronomy clearly tells us ... "Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God is one LORD:" Compare the following references to Lord:

The Lord God is the Creator. Isaiah 42:5.
The Lord Jesus is the Creator. John 1:3, 10.

The Lord God said, "I am He." Isaiah 43:10.
The Lord Jesus said, "I am He." John 8:24.

The Lord God is the only Saviour. Isaiah 43:10, 11.
The Lord Jesus is the Saviour. Titus 1:4.

The Lord God shall reign forever. Psalms. 146:10.
The Lord Jesus reign forever. Luke 1 :33.

The Lord God is the King of Israel. Isaiah 43:15.
The Lord Jesus is the King of Israel. Matt. 27:37.

The Lord God is the First and the Last. Isaiah 44:6.
The Lord Jesus is the First and the Last. Revelation 1:8.

The Lord God is Almighty. Genesis 17:1.
The Lord Jesus is Almighty. Revelation 1:8.
According to the Bible, God is described as ...

1) NUMERICALLY ONE
2) ETERNAL
3) INVISIBLE
4) SPIRIT
5) ALONE and by Himself is man's Creator AND Saviour
6) Almighty (there can't more than ONE be "Almighty")
7) Without flesh and bones
8) ALONE knows the thoughts and intents of the heart
9) All knowing ... omniscient
10) All powerful ... omnipotent
11) Everywhere at all times ... omnipresent.

According to Deuteronomy 6:4 and Ephesians 4:5 There is only ONE Lord. When Paul was struck down on the road to Damascus, he cried, "Who art thou, Lord?" And the Lord said, "I AM JESUS." Acts 9:5. Beyond a shadow of a doubt the Lord God Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Lord Jesus Christ of the New Testament!
Jesus confirmed that He was NOT a separate Person, but God manifested in the flesh when He said to Philip, " ... He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.. .The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself; but the father that DWELLETH IN ME, He doeth the works ... Believe me that I am in the Father, and the FATHER IN ME ..." John 14:9-11. Jesus also simply stated, "I and My Father are ONE (not two)." John 10:30 ... prompting the Jews to immediately to take up stones to stone Him because, as they put it, "...thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

When Jesus emphasized the importance of people knowing His identity as He taught in the temple by saying, "...For if ye believe not that I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins ...They understood not that He spake to them of the FATHER." John 8:24-27.

People today still do not understand the relationship of the Father and the Son ... the Spirit and the flesh - which had 2 natures ... because of the indoctrination they've been subjected to.

When Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan River, the voice of God spoke, "This is my beloved Son, IN WHOM I am well pleased." Matthew 3:17. Notice, God said, "IN WHOM" - not with whom! "To wit, that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto Himself..." 2 Corinthians 5:19. "... the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." John 14:10.

The difference in the tabernacle of badgers skins and the tabernacle of flesh was the tabernacle of badgers skins was inanimate, and the tabernacle of flesh was a living, breathing, supernaturally conceived and born human which had 2 natures ... one Divine and one human. I use the analogy of Clark Kent and Superman a lot when talking about the relationship of the Father and the Son because most people can relate to Clark Kent being Superman incognito ... not two separate "persons."

It is important to keep in mind that God can manifest Himself in a multitude of different ways to multitudes of different people in billions of different geographical locations all over the globe ... SIMULTANEOUSLY ... but that does NOT make Him more than ONE PERSON. Also, it is important to point out that Jesus almost always said and did the things He said and did for the benefit of others ... and to set an example. The voice from heaven was for the benefit of others:

John 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

John Chapter 12:

28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
God had to do many things just for the benefit of doubting, sinful humanity. Do you really think it was necessary for the stone be rolled away for Jesus to come out of the grave? No way! But He did it for our benefit. Once a person understands who Jesus "really" is, they will not stumble at His words as many did way back then ... and as many still do to this very day. However, just as there were those way back then who had "ears to hear," there are people today who have layed aside their indoctrination with all the creeds, statements, declarations and articles of faith of denominationalism and have opened their mind and heart to the unadulterated Word of God ... and are discovering for themselves, through independent study (just as I did), the Truth of God's Word IN ITS ENTIRETY!

Fred's response continued: Under divine guidance, in Act 2:33-36, Peter applies it that manner. V33: Therefore because he (Jesus) was exalted to the right hand of God�." In v34, Peter quotes the Psalm and then he applies it. He says in v36. "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God (LORD,Jehovah) made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you impaled. There is nothing in that passage that says Jehovah was Lord and was sitting at the right hand of "God". It actually says the opposite. There is no possibility for the Jews listening to have understood Peter�s words to have meant that they had impaled God.

Bobby's follow up: As Stephen was facing death, he saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God (Acts 7:55). This scripture is often taken "literally" by those who wish to use it to support the inferior subordinate "person" theory. It is important to point out that Stephen only prayed to Jesus (not to anyone else) just before he died (regardless of the literal translation many try to give this verse) ... which insults a lot of indoctrinated denominationalists today when they encounter those who embrace the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, and who focus such attention on Jesus. The offense comes because these poor people, who have been so indoctrinated, think that such attention being emphasized on Jesus leaves the Father out, and is, therefore, disrespectful to God. Thus their label, "Jesus Only." Personally, I wear it as a badge of honor ... knowing what I know about who Jesus "really" is ... and knowing where that label comes from.

We know God is invisible. We know no man has ever seen God. And we know God is omnipresent throughout the universe ... and there is no one beside Him. Therefore, the right hand of God MUST mean something besides a geographical location.

The term "right hand" does not form a part of another Person or Deity. It is symbolic of a place of power, authority and acceptance with God. Just as the left hand of God is symbolic of rejection (Matthew 25:33) ... the sheep on the right and the goats on the left. Jesus said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matthew 28:18. Paul said that Christ is the power and the wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24). Note the following symbolical uses of the term "right hand" as correlated to power and authority:

My right hand hath spanned the heavens. Isaiah 48:13.
The Lord is at the right hand of the poor. Psalms 109:31.
God led Israel by the right hand of Moses. Isaiah 63:12.
The Lord was at David�s right hand. Psalms 16:8.

To give literal meanings to the scriptures like these would suggest that a physical arm came down from the sky to lead Israel, or a physical nose came down and parted the waters in Exodus 15:8. See how ridiculous things can become when trying to make the Bible say what you want it to say, or trying to understand the spiritual by literal interpretations of the scriptures.

"Is Jesus 'in' the Godhead, or is the Godhead 'in' Jesus?" The Bible clearly states, "For IN HIM (Christ) DWELLETH all the FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY. And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the HEAD OF ALL PRINCIPALITY AND POWER." Colossians 2:9-10. So there is only ONE PERSON in which the Godhead is manifested, revealed, contained, and that is JESUS! Because all the fulness of the GODHEAD ("the very essence or complete nature and attributes" of God) was "IN" JESUS "bodily" according to Colossian 2:9!

In Jesus Christ, two wills or natures are portrayed: a human will and a Divine will. He was man (flesh) and He was God (Spirit). As man He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane, "O my Father.. not as I WILL, but as THOU WILT." Matthew 26:39. Also He cried out on the cross, "My God, my God. Why host thou forsaken me?" Matthew 27:46. Many who claim to be spiritually enlightened can't make the distinction of the Spirit and flesh (dual natures) of Jesus Christ. Nor can they tell when the flesh (human side) is speaking or when the Spirit (Divine side) is speaking. As man, Jesus Christ prayed. It was not Deity praying to Deity ... nor was He praying to Himself. It was the human nature (the flesh) praying to the Divine nature (the Spirit). His human nature (the flesh) did not want to die, but He knew the will of the Spirit must be done. Jesus was fully man and He was fully God. AND, NOT ONLY DID HE COME TO REDEEM US, BUT, HE ALSO CAME TO SET AN EXAMPLE FOR ALL OF US TO FOLLOW ... WHICH MEANT HE SAID AND DID A WHOLE LOT OF STUFF WHICH HE DID NOT DO FOR HIS OWN ACCOUNT, BUT OURS.

Almighty God chose to take upon Himself the form of a servant in order to experience everything we humans experience and to do what no other human was qualified to do ... redeem us. At Calvary the flesh (human nature) cried out to the Spirit (Divine nature) the prophetic words of Psalms 22:1. "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Afterward the Spirit left the tabernacle of flesh (the body), Jesus fulfilled his role and died. Three days later the Spirit of God re-entered the tabernacle of flesh and Jesus came forth victorious over death, hell and the grave. As a man, Jesus hungered, He slept, He became weary, He wept, He increased in wisdom and stature, He prayed, and He died. (See Matthew 4:2, Matthew 8:24, John 4:6, John 11:35, Luke 2:52, Matthew 26:39, Matthew 27:50.)

As God, Jesus healed the sick, He cast out devils, He raised the dead, He calmed the sea, He walked upon the water, He forgave sins, He answered prayer, and He arose from the grave. (See Matthew 4,23, Luke 8:35, John 11:43-44, Mark 4:39, Mark 2:5, John 14:14, John 2:19-21.)

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 says, "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

Jesus Christ said, "I can of mine own self (human nature) do nothing.. (John 5:30). ..but the FATHER that DWELLETH IN ME (Divine nature), HE doeth the works (John 14:10)." As man, He even expressed His limited knowledge (Mark 13:32); but as God, He knew all things (John 21:17). Compare the following titles which portray the dual nature of Jesus Christ:

DIVINE SIDE
HUMAN SIDE

Everlasting Father - Isaiah 9:6 Son of Man - Luke 9:22
Chief Shepherd - 1 Peter 5:4 Lamb - 1 Peter 1:19
King of Kings - Revelation 17:14 Servant - Philippians 2:7
The Almighty - Revelation 1:8 Lord God - John 20:28
High Priest - Hebrews 2:17 Mediator - 1 Timothy 2:5

"Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." I Timothy 3:16. How clearly brought out is this glorious truth that Jesus Christ was God manifested in the flesh. He became Spirit in body to bring redemption to man.

This is the scripture God used to reveal Himself to me many years ago when I layed aside my indoctrination and began to independently study the Bible. When the scales fell from my eyes at this verse, it was as if I had been gazing into a 3-D picture and saw something that had been concealed, but had been there all along, that I wasn't able to see until I looked "into" it the right way.

God, the eternal Spirit, is "Omni-present" - everywhere at the same time; therefore, His Substance fills the universe. The Holy Spirit cannot be separated from the Father. That which was conceived in the virgin Mary was of the Holy Ghost. Matthew 1:20. The truth becomes evident that the Holy Spirit is the Father of the Son. To try to separate the Father and the Holy Spirit and form two separate "persons" (Spirits), would give the Son two Fathers, which is impossible. Definitely the Father and the Holy Spirit would have to be the same Spirit.

As a former trinitarian myself, I could not understand why the Father ... who is Holy and who is a Spirit ... isn't also the Holy Spirit. And I've never met anyone who can explain how that can possibly be ... regardless of how much education they have or indoctrination they've gone through. Which brings up another point. To hear some people's slide ruler explanations on this subject, it would take having a law degree and library full of books, commentaries and research material for anyone to understand the Bible ... and that's just NOT the case. Peter, James and John were not highly educated men, but they turned their world upside down for Jesus. The Bible is NOT complicted. People are complicated ... especially those who have been educated beyond their intelligence and/or have been complicated beyond repair.

There is only ONE SPIRIT. Ephesians 4:4. "For by ONE SPIRIT are we all baptized into one body..." 1 Corinthians 12:13. The Bible proves that the ONE Spirit is the Holy Ghost. "This spake He (Jesus) of the SPIRIT, which they that believe on Him should receive: far the HOLY GHOST was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified." John 7:39.

The Bible proves that the ONE Spirit is the Father. "There is but ONE GOD, the FATHER..." 1 Corinthians 8:6. In John 4:24, Jesus said, "GOD is a SPIRIT..." Here the human side was speaking of the Divine side ... the Father ... the Spirit (NOT Spirits -plural). No one would deny that He was speaking of the Father here.

The Bible proves that the ONE Spirit is Jesus. There is ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST. 1 Corinthians 8:6. "Now the LORD (Jesus) is that SPIRIT..." 2 Corinthians 3:17.

"There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE." 1 John 5:7.

Notice it does NOT say, "these three "persons" are one" ... AND it does NOT say, "these three are "as" one." The Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost are three offices which God (singular -one) occupies and functions in, just as you and I are one, and also occupy more than one office and function in more than one capacity ... like father, son and husband ... or teacher, student and administrator.

By no means did Jesus teach that the Holy Ghost was another Person. Jesus said, "The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, He shall teach you all things..." John 14:26. Again Jesus said, "...if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. John 16:7. Also Jesus said, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." John 14:18. Compare John 14:26 with John 16:7; Jesus spoke of the Father and Himself as ONE. Compare John 14:26 with John 14:18. Jesus spoke of the Holy Ghost and Himself as ONE. Since the Father and Jesus are one, and Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one: then the Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit are ONE. The Holy Spirit is referred to as "He." But that should come as no surprise since the Father and the Holy Spirit are one and the same. Besides, God is referred to as "He" throughout entire the Bible. (Also compare the following Scriptures which show that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are ONE: Matthew 10:20, Mark 13:11, Luke 21:15.)

The Bible says the Father and Jesus are ONE. The Bible says Jesus and the Holy Spirit are ONE. And the Bible says the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost are ONE. Those who try to create a separate "person" by Jesus' reference to "another" Comforter in John 14:16 fail to acknowledge and/or understand that the Holy Spirit living in the hearts of believers throughout the entire New Testament Church Dispensation (as opposed to God manifested in flesh living among believers during that time) is another form of God -NOT another "person" of God.

When the Holy Ghost came on the day of Pentecost, 120 disciples were filled (including Mary, the mother of Jesus) and began to speak with tongues as the SPIRIT gave them utterance. Acts 2:4. Peter preached that the Holy Ghost was the Spirit of God. As he used the prophecy of Joel 2:28, he said, "It shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of MY SPIRIT (singular ... not my Spirits -plural) UPON ALL FLESH..." Acts 2:17.

Paul used the terms "Spirit of God" and "Spirit of Christ" as synonymous terms in reference to the Holy Spirit. He said, "Ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the SPIRIT OF GOD dwell in you. Now if any man have not the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is none of His." Romans 8:9. And we've already established that there there is only one Spirit of Deity. (Also see Colossians 1:27 and Galatians 4:6.)

There is ONE GOD and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and IN YOU ALL. Ephesians 4:6. There is only ONE GOD manifested in the flesh and received in the hearts of believers today ... and His name is JESUS!

Independent Bible students acknowledge truth. Honest hearts, receive the truth. There can only be ONE "ALMIGHTY." There can only be ONE "SUPREME BEING": the eternal and infinite Spirit, Creator and Sovereign of the universe, and Saviour of man. God said, "...Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no Saviour." Isaiah 43:10-11, "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God and there is NONE ELSE." Isaiah 45:22, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY." Revelation 1:8." In that day shall there be ONE LORD, and His NAME ONE." Zechariah 14:9. And every tongue shall confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD. Philippians 2:11.

Fred's response continued: Also, Jesus himself states the reason he is being stoned, that he is saying he is the Son of God. That being said, it can be concluded that indeed the Pharisees were drawing a false conclusion about Jesus being God or even a god, as applied in Psalm 82:6 to Pharisees. If we read John 8:58, without any preconceived notion�. Well lets see it again. "Before Abraham was, I am. Ok, What does "was" mean in relation to Abraham? It means, he "lived, existed"(past tense) Jesus then says, I am. It�s a verb. In other words, I "live, exist"(present tense in KJV). It can also be translated " I have lived since before Abraham was born" The Pharisees thought be was blaspheming by saying he was alive even before Abraham was born, and because he was declaring himself the Christ. There is nothing in the text that says he was God himself. Now, you can try to deduce that from other texts, but not from this one."Before Abraham was, I am." There is a simple statement saying he "is" before Abraham. You cannot from this text deduce his is God, because he could also be God�s Annointed One, the Messiah.

Bobby's follow up: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is your belief that Jesus' existence prior to Bethlehem was as Michael the archangel ... a spirit. So, with that thought in mind, it is your position that Jesus was a separate spirit from the Spirit of the LORD (YHWH) ... and when Jesus said things like "Before Abraham was, I AM" He was actually referring to Him (Jesus) being before Abraham as Michael and NOT God. Now, if I'm wrong in this assessment, then, by all means correct me in your next email.

Fred: Another is Luke 22:40-45, where Jesus says,"Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheles, not my will, but thine, be done." It believe what the text says, that Jesus' will is distinct from the Father's, therefore I conclude that they cannot be the same person. and so forth...

Bobby: An omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, INVISIBLE Spirit ... which does NOT have flesh and bones ... functions as the Father of Creation. However, when this omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, INVISIBLE Spirit ... which does NOT have flesh and bones ... literally became manifest in the flesh, He then functioned as BOTH the Father of Creation AND the Saviour of all humanity, known as the "Son of God". At any rate, the will of the flesh had to become subject to the will of the Spirit. You see two separate "persons" here, whereas, I see only ONE PERSON who functions in these two separate capacities. But, let's take a look at Luke Chapter 22 ...

Luke 22
1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.
3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
4 And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.
5 And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money.
6 And he promised, and sought opportunity to betray him unto them in the absence of the multitude.
7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?
10 And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.
11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.
13And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. (it is amazing to me when Jesus declares AND demonstrates His Deity, Glory, Power and Knowledge)

14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
23 And they began to enquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing.
24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. (This was spoken to Peter before he was "born again" ... the Bible way ... in Acts Chapter 2)

33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.
34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.
35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
39 And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him.
40 And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.
41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. (I don't believe anyone was eaves dropping, and heard Jesus' prayer. But, the fact that God inspired it to become part of the written Word, that, alone, should remind us how He demonstrated in His "example" for all, to crucify the flesh ... so to speak ... in order for the Spirit of God to be in control of our lives. While the flesh, obviously, did not want to die, the Spirit knew it had to. And, I've even said that He died ... so to speak ... there in the garden that night. You and I, too, must die the will ... or desires ... of the flesh in order to fulfill the will of the Spirit)

Fred's response to the above: That is an interesting explanation. But why not let Jesus� own words speak for themselves? We can all draw many lessons from Jesus willingness to do the Father�s will, but that does not change that his will differs from the Father�s

Bobby's follow up: I don't believe the will of Jehovah Incarnate was a contradictary or diametrically opposed will than that of Jehovah. It's just that, as a man, Jehovay Incarnate wasn't looking forward to being very brutally and painfully tortured and crucified ... which, as God, He knew He was going to have to endure in order to redeem man back to Himself. Not only did Jehovah Incarnate set a perfect example for you and me to follow ... in His words AND in His deeds ..., He also very clearly demonstrated that fleshly desires MUST become ... and remain ... subject (subordinate) to the Spirit in order for God's Divine will to be perfected in our life. The following is an explanation someone puts forth, which is probably easier to understand than my shooting from the hip response. It can be viewed in its entirety at this web site ...

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/willofchrist2.htm ...
"I Will" or "We Will": How Many Wills Does Jesus Have?
by
Jason Dulle

The Nature of the Incarnation: There is Only One Person in Christ

The number of wills in Christ becomes clear when we understand the nature of the incarnation. The incarnation is not a mere indwelling of God in a man, but God coming to be man. The incarnation did not bring into being a separate human person, but rather it was God Himself taking on a new manner of existence as man. The difference between Jesus and all other men lies in the fact that we are man existing as man, while Jesus is God existing as man, not God existing as God and man existing as man together in union.

Luke 22 Continued (from above) ...
43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. (In my view, it would not be anything unusual about an angel ... a ministering spirit ... ministering to God. But, it would seem to me to be unusual for one ministering spirit/angel to be ministering to another ministering spirit/angel, wouldn't it? I can't recall having ever read where one ministering spirit/angel ministered to another ministering spirit/angel. If you have, please share that with me.)

Fred's response to the above: Jesus was the prexistent Son of God who was born/ conceived miracously without sexual relations by the Holy spirit. He was a pefect human, just like Adam, thereby providing the equivalent ransom sacrified to cover Adamic sin. So an angel can strengthen a human, but can he strengthen God?

Bobby's follow up: We'll be giving this a real good going over, I expect, when you send your answer to question # 13. In what form did Jesus exist prior to the Incarnation? So, I will wait until we get to that point to address the pre-existence of Jesus. However, there are some very significant differences between Adam and Jesus. Adam was "created", and formed from the dust of the earth. Jesus was "begotten", and actually born of a woman. Adam was NOT Jehovah Incarnate. Jesus was. Adam was tempted, and sinned. Jesus was tempted, and didn't. Jesus was BOTH the root AND the offspring of David. Adam wasn't. It wouldn't seem strange for an angel to minister to (strenghten) Jehovah Incarnate or an "ordinary" man. But, it would seem strange for an angel to minister to another angel. If you know of an instance in the Scriptures where this takes place, please let me know.

Luke 22 Continued (from above) ...
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
46 And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.
47 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him.
48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?
49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?
50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.
52 Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves?
53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.
54 Then took they him, and led him, and brought him into the high priest's house. And Peter followed afar off.
55 And when they had kindled a fire in the midst of the hall, and were set down together, Peter sat down among them.
56 But a certain maid beheld him as he sat by the fire, and earnestly looked upon him, and said, This man was also with him.
57 And he denied him, saying, Woman, I know him not.
58 And after a little while another saw him, and said, Thou art also of them. And Peter said, Man, I am not.
59 And about the space of one hour after another confidently affirmed, saying, Of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is a Galilaean.
60 And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew.
61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
62 And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.
63 And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him.
64 And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face, and asked him, saying, Prophesy, who is it that smote thee?
65 And many other things blasphemously spake they against him.
66 And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council, saying,
67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:
68 And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go.
69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
71And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth. (Jesus' declaration concerning His Deity was not misunderstood to be that of Him actually being an angel)

Fred's response to the above: He is declaring himself the Messiah, see v67-71. He is neither declaring himself God Almighty or an angel. Something else needs to be explained also, God granted the Messiah the power and authority to perform miracles. So Jesus having supernatural ability is not exclusive evidence of Jesus declaring his Deity.

Bobby's follow up: God was "in" Jehovah Incarnate. Therefore, it wasn't a matter of one inferior subordinate person being granted temporary permission to put on God's Glory and Power in order to speak, act and function as Almighty God. It was God, Himself, performing the supernatural works, speaking in parables and uttering the hard sayings of old.

Fred: 2. If Jesus if God, why does God give gim a revelation such as stated in Rev 1:1: Answer: Reve 1:1 is not be taken literally. Did I understand your responses?

Bobby: What I am saying is Revelation 1:1 should not be interpreted from a carnal ... or "natural" stand point. The Revelation of Jesus Christ wasn't something given from one center of conciousness to another center of conciousness and delivered to the Apostle John by that same, or yet another, center of conciousness. **IF** Jesus was an angel, or some other inferior subordinate, He would not be in possession of ALL power and knowledge as the Bible states He does, indeed, have ... as God will NOT give His Glory or Power to another. Neither did the "flesh" Create anything. However, Jehovah Incarnate was, indeed, the Creator. What should be learned, in my opinion, is that Jesus did NOT want His "foot print followers" nor any subsequent believers to do is to place their confidence, faith and effections on the "natural" but, instead, on the "supernatural". No man, besides Jesus, has ever been ... or ever will be ... qualified or capable of functioning in the capacy of the Lamb of Atonement, to redeem man back to God. And, God BECAME the Lamb when He put on a robe of flesh (so to speak), came down and walked among His own Creation as a lowly servant. I realize, that, as a Jehovah's Witness, your indoctrination teaches you that this is totally repugnant. But I can assure you Jesus was no angel which was dispatched to Earth to do something which either God could not ... or would not ... do, Himself. As Abraham prophetically said to Isaac on the way up the mountain, "God will provide HIMSELF a lamb". That day, God did provide a substitute for Isaac in an animal He placed there. However, many centuries later, God actually BECAME the sacrifical lamb, Himself, known as the Son of God AND the Son of man. AND, both descriptions are totally accurate because He was BOTH God and man ... human and Divine ... NOT an inferior subordinate ministering spirit made to look like a man.

Fred: Obviously I take another position regarding this text. I see no reason why this text to mean something other than what is says. It is true that the entire Bible requires spiritual insight and not everything is literal, but that same insight should tell us when something in the Bible can be taken in a "natural" sense. I have looked at the text and do not see the teaching lesson that you state, but I certainly apreciate the explanation and respect you for it. What I can see is that you are working back from this text and reading it in light of what you already believe.

Bobby: Fred, I was NOT indoctrinated to believe as I do today. Therefore, my approach to Bible study is NOT done by "working back" into anything. Instead of basing my beliefs on a few Scriptures which are either interpreted literally or given implied interpretations, I just go where the preponderance of Scriptural evidence takes me. It is really that simple.

Fred's response to the above: Well Bobby, you are indoctrinated, just as much as me.

Bobby's follow up: My knowledge of the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine is NOT a result of having attended training classes, done a certain amount of required work and activities, or done a certain amount of controlled reading. So, please don't be so presumptious in asserting that I have been indoctrinated. However, I am glad you do admit to being indoctrinated, since I was already aware of the extent to which the Watchtower Society controls and indoctrinates their members. However, having said that, I must hasten to add that, since you are operating "outside" of the realm of acceptable practice of the Watchtower Society by reading religious material other than that which is exclusively published and controlled by them, that I commend you very highly for that.

Fred's response continued: But is it difficult to see one�s bias when one is so convinced he is right. Consider, any text that speaks of Jesus and God as if they were separate persons are considered by you as "Clark Kent" passages. Then in the middle of those passages, you pick one or two that you believe support your doctrine.

Bobby's follow up: I am thoroughly convinced of the Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine, and have scrutinized it over and over and over, and have put it up against everything to come down the pike, my way, for the past 20 years.

Fred's response continued: When I pointed out Rev 1:1 you stated that a natural reading was incorrect. Well why? It would be a perfect fit for the "Clark Kent" passages that would lend support to the numerically superior number (preponderance) of bible passages that speak of God and Jesus as if they were separate persons. Remember, this text if taken at face value would contradict the Oneness doctrine, so naturally you reject at face value based on what you already believe about Oneness. I am not saying its wrong to do that, just that we need to own up to it.

Bobby's follow up: Here's what I said about Revelation 1:1 ... What I am saying is Revelation 1:1 should not be interpreted from a carnal ... or "natural" stand point. The Revelation of Jesus Christ wasn't something given from one center of conciousness to another center of conciousness and delivered to the Apostle John by that same, or yet another, center of conciousness. **IF** Jesus was an angel, or some other inferior subordinate, He would not be in possession of ALL power and knowledge as the Bible states He does, indeed, have ... as God will NOT give His Glory or Power to another. Neither did the "flesh" Create anything. However, Jehovah Incarnate was, indeed, the Creator. What should be learned, in my opinion, is that Jesus did NOT want His "foot print followers" nor any subsequent believers to do is to place their confidence, faith and effections on the "natural" but, instead, on the "supernatural". No man, besides Jesus, has ever been ... or ever will be ... qualified or capable of functioning in the capacy of the Lamb of Atonement, to redeem man back to God. And, God BECAME the Lamb when He put on a robe of flesh (so to speak), came down and walked among His own Creation as a lowly servant. I realize, that, as a Jehovah's Witness, your indoctrination teaches you that this is totally repugnant. But I can assure you Jesus was no angel which was dispatched to Earth to do something which either God could not ... or would not ... do, Himself. As Abraham prophetically said to Isaac on the way up the mountain, "God will provide HIMSELF a lamb". That day, God did provide a substitute for Isaac in an animal He placed there. However, many centuries later, God actually BECAME the sacrifical lamb, Himself, known as the Son of God AND the Son of man. AND, both descriptions are totally accurate because He was BOTH God and man ... human and Divine ... NOT an inferior subordinate ministering spirit made to look like a man.

Fred: Also, yes, I will answer point for point any other questions that you might have and when we get to it, I can respond to the open letter. Regards, Fred

Bobby: Thanks. You can begin by giving me the rest of your answers to the following questions in your next email ...

Fred: If it's ok, I can respond to the questions in a later email, since I have some work deadlines today to work. But you'll get 'em.

Bobby: I will anxiously await them.

Fred's response to the above: And I will be sending them real soon.

Fred: Bobby, Sorry, forgot to address my position regarding Math 4 and Jesus temptation. Basically, I believe Jesus' refusal to bow down to the Devil was an act of loyalty and true obedience, being a separte person. Since you believe that Jesus is God, there was never any question about his loyalty and obediance to God, according to your understanding. I believe my position harmonizes more closely to the Bible, since it says that Jesus learned obedience. Talk to you soon, your friend, Fred

Bobby: Surely you don't mean that you have questioned Jesus' loyalty, do you? Since you mentioned Jesus learned obedience (from Hebrews 5:8), let's take a look at Hebrews Chapter 5 ...

Hebrews 5
1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
3And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. (Unlike Melchisedec, or any of the Levitical Priests, Jesus didn't need to offer up sacrifices for His own sins because He didn't have any)

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; (an unusual phrase, isn't it?)

8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; (the things which He suffered is how He "learned" obedience. It follows, that He didn't learn it as a result of someone else teaching Him.)

9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Jesus is the "author" of eternal salvation)

10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. (the Hebrews/Jews were ... and still are ... a tough bunch to ever lay aside their preconceived ideas long enough to receive instruction, let alone the revelation of Jesus' Deity. But, it does happen.)

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Fred's response to the above: Bobby, I think you missed the point. I am merely comparing the two positions. If it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to sin, is the end result ever in doubt? Clearly not, for there is NO possibility of disloyalty and disobedience. What would you think of a test that you could not flunk, even if you tried? Would you consider that a real "test".

Bobby's follow up: A test which I couldn't flunk if I tried wouldn't be a test at all. However, even though I am committed maintaining a good relationship with God, regardless of what comes or goes ... and regardless of what others may say, do or think ... a test to see if I am really that committed and/or whether or not I'd reach a breaking point ... certainly would be a real test. Abraham believed God would raise Isaac up from the dead if necessary to keep my covenant with him. Therefore, he was willing to plunge the knife into Isaac's chest. However, at the last moment, God stopped him. Although, Abraham was that committed, do you believe he would have said that that wasn't a real "test"? I don't think so.

Fred's response continued: What if though, Jesus as an agent with his own will, mind, power of reason CHOSE, out of his independent will and desire to please God, to be obedient. Would not that be an act of true loyalty and obedienace? Which of the two is the true test?

Bobby's follow up: Jesus was Jehovah Incarnate. There was no way He was going to succomb to sin in any shape, form or fashion. However, that did NOT mean He didn't have to suffer tremendously for what He did in becoming the sacrificial lamb. Just because He was tempted and tried does NOT mean that He wasn't Jehovah Incarnate. I think we have already suffiently covered, by the preponderance of Scriptural evidence, the fact that God certainly can be tempted and tried. By the way, I receive your answers to the first few questions, and will respond to them later. I have a good bit going on tomorrow (Saturday).

Fred: Hey Bobby, I am responding to this email in hopes that we can close this thread soon and focus on the one with the questions for me. It seems to cover everything were covering here with a few exceptions. You can respond here or in the one email thread with the questions. I just want to keep things more focused.

Bobby: Alright, I'll get on the questions (other) email as soon as I can, and get back to you. I've gone through this latest round of responses (email), here, and have followed up on some of the portions which you did choose to respond to. Also, as you will notice, the new dialogue is in larger fonts than the previous dialogue ... which readily shows who said what to whom AND what points were not addressed and/or questions which were not answered. In doing it this way, everything will be there for you or me to just copy and pasted ... if either one of us decides to put the discussion on a web page later so that other Jehovah's Witnesses or Apostolics would like to peruse and/or critique our dialogue. If I use the material for a web page, it will be just as the following EXCEPT I'll just use one font size for the whole shabang. Other than that, there won't be any additions or omissions. Everything will remain in tact. And, if you use the material for a web page, I just ask that you do the same. That way, a person can read it in its entirety and make up their own mind as to which one of us made the best presentation of the Genuine New Testament Church Message ... The Apostles' One God Monotheistic Doctrine.

Fred: Also, let me clarify a few things. Jehovah�s Witnesses do not believe that God had sex with Mary to give birth to Jesus.

Bobby: How do you say Mary was impregnated ... and by whom??

Fred's response: Hey Bobby, are you telling people that JWs believe that God had sex with Mary? God transferred the Son�s life to Mary�s womb thru his spirit. No sex was involved, as Jesus remained a virgin. There was no DNA from Mary, so he was without sin.

Bobby's Follow up: I believe it is your position that the Holy Spirit is NOT Jehovah, but an "active force" which over shadowed Mary. And, that the Holy Spirit caused her to become pregnant without Jehovah being there ... OR that the Holy Spirit caused the pregnacy to take place with Jehovah being right there, too. **IF** it is your position that the Holy Spirit is NOT Jehovah, and Jehovah was not right there ... or **IF** it is your position that the Holy Spirit is NOT Jehovah, but Jehovah was right there, too ... either way, I do not accept your premise that the Holy Spirit is NOT Jehovah. Also, I do NOT accept the assertion that the Son was already existent and alive ... as the Son ... prior to Bethlehem's manger, and that His life was some how "transferred" into Mary's womb. DNA? Never thought about that one, I must confess. Is is also your position that Jesus did NOT have a navel, and that Mary was more or less just a human incubator? Just curious.

Fred's response to the above: Is that a yes?

Bobby's follow up: It is NOT my position that Jesus did NOT have a navel, or that Mary was only a human incubator. But, I take it by your response (above) that that "IS" your position. **IF** this is NOT your position, you really ought to let me know so I can put that into the record. Also, as you must know, Jehovah caused a number of "baren" women (though, not any virgins) in the Old Testament to become impregnated by someone's "seed", and bear children. But, none of these children were known as the "children of Jehovah", even though they very definitely were conceived as a result of the "action" of Jehovah, and were, indeed, "special" children. Now, from what we've discussed, I have concluded that it is your position that the Holy Spirit is NOT Jehovah, and that Jehovah was NOT even present when the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary ... and Mary was very definitely impregnated by someone's "seed". Therefore, I don't see how you can say Jesus was the "child" of Jehovah since Jehovah was not even present. Which brings up two new questions: Do you believe Jesus was really and truly the "child" of Jehovah? If so, what is your explantion that Jehovah couldn't do it Himself, and had to use an "active force" to impregnate Mary with His "seed". This just prompted two questions that I would like to get a direct answer to, Fred, if you will indulge me ...

1) Do you believe Jehovah has a "body"?

2) If so, do you believe Jehovah's body is a completely separate body than Jesus' body?

Fred's response to the above: Good Morning Bobby, There are a few things I need to say regarding this question. The very idea that God had sexual intercourse with Mary is blasphemous to Jehovah�s Witnesses. To me personally, the thought (not you) is offensive. I don�t know how else to put it and again, JEHOVAH"S WITNESSES DO NOT BELIEVE THAT JEHOVAH HAD SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH MARY. PERIOD. You asked me how Mary became impregnated. I explained to you in three sentences what our position is. If you do not agree with it, that is ok. But before that, I had asked you if you had been telling people that . I had to re read your response a bunch of times to even understand all the if and or�s, to find an answer. I remember reading in a previous email that an observer said that you had said that JW believe that God had sex with Mary, I just cant find that email. You have yet to answer. When I asked , "Is that a yes" you wrote an even larger paragraph, and still no answer. My guess is that you have been telling some people that. If you have, I trust that you will do the right thing and make amends with those people, who deserve to know that we do not hold to that blasphemous teaching (to us), let alone the Jehovah�s Witnesses community, thru this forum.

Bobby's follow up: Tuesday was a very long day for me, as I had to drive up to Jackson and have a bunch of tests done and pre-op stuff done in preparation for surgery next week. And, Wednesday was another very long day, as I had to drive back up to Jackson to take my mother in law to one doctor's office for an appointment, and my daughter and grandson to another doctor's office for an appointment AND pick up some medicine for my mother at yet another doctor's office. Sooo, I had to wait until after church on Wednesday night to start working on this. At any rate, here's the deal about this matter of sexual intercourse and Mary ... where it came from and by whom, and what I've said and haven't said. Before the email in question, which you couldn't find, I don't recall having ever told anyone that Jehovah's Witnesses believe Mary had sex with an angel. However, I did have a very elderly Jehovah's Witness elder, back in about 1987, refer to Genesis Chapter 6 in reference to Mary's conception, while sitting at my dining room table one night. And, it was his position that the "sons of God" were actually angels who came down from Heaven as men and had sexual relations with the daughters of men. Soooo, that raises yet another question, I guess. Do you believe these "sons of God" were angels who came down from Heaven, too. Here's how Genesis Chapter 6 starts off in the KJV AND the Watchtower version ...

KJV ... Gen. 6:1-4And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Watchtower version ... Gen. 6:1-4 Now it came about that when men started to grow in numbers on the surface of the ground and daughters were born to them, then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose. After that Jehovah said: "My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also flesh. Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years." The Neph�i�lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.

Bobby's follow up continued: At any rate, what I put forth in the email was what was related to me by a Jehovah's Witness elder ... that Mary was impregnated by an angel just as the women in Genesis Chapter 6, who had sexual relations with angels that came down from Heaven back in the old testament. Granted, it may have been the same sort of double talk which trinitarians use a lot of times, when talking about Jesus. In one breath, He's God manifest in the flesh. In the next, He is an inferior, subordinate ... completely separate and distinct ... "person", and NOT God at all. However, I insist that neither they ... nor Jehovah's Witnesses ... can take both sides of an issue, and try to have it both ways. Likewise, when this elder told me about his position concerning angels, coming down from Heaven and actually having children with the daughters of men ... and asserted that Mary, likewise, became pregnant when an angel over shadowed ... or, as you say, over powered ... her, he did, indeed, make it sound like the same sexual relations he asserted happened between the angels, who came down as men, and the daughters of men in Genesis Chapter 6. This all may be new to you. And, you may not agree with it at all. Then, again, it may be something you've been indoctrined to believe and teach, too. And, you may stand by it. I really don't know. But, I would like for you to address it sepecifically. At any rate, here's that portion of dialogue in the email you couldn't find, which sparked this matter about sexual intercourse, followed by an important comment ...

Phillip: Hello Bro. Bobby; I am reading this discussion but it seems if there is a trinity the 3rd person or the Holy Ghost would be as much a part of the discussion as the Father or the Son. Is the Holy Ghost an individual or a part of the Godhead and if so why isn't he brought out in these discussions more by individuals teaching the trinity.If a trinity doctrine is taught then all 3 should be discussed instead of two. Rev. 10th chapter seems the angel ate the whole book(Bible) and not just part even if it was sweet to the mouth and bitter to the belly. God Bless, Had a wonderful Christmas. Phillip

Bobby: Praise the Lord, Brother Phillip! Good to hear from you. We, too, had a wonderful Christmas. And, I was in a wonderful Christmas Day worship service at the church I used to attend in Kissimmee, Florida. At any rate, you bring up an excellent point when dealing with trinitarians. However, the ongoing discussion with Fred really won't be dealing with the trinity. I don't know if Fred, like myself, is a former trinitarian or not. But, based on what I've learned from past experience, studies, debates and dealings with a number of Jehovah's Witnesses, I do know that the Watchtower Society indoctrinates their constituents in the belief that Jesus was not God manifested in the flesh ... and, therefore, should not be worshipped or praised as Deity in any shape, manner, form or fashion. Their position is that the Holy Spirit isn't Jehovah, but is Jehovah's active force. And, the Holy Spirit, acting as Jehovah's agent, had sexual intercourse with Mary and impregnated her with the Christ child, who was actually Michael the arch-angel who came down to earth. I believe this will be an interesting dialogue, as it seems to me that Fred is sort of like myself ... in that he isn't out looking for a brawl AND he actually thinks for himself.

COMMENT: It seems to me that the ONLY thing you disagree with in the underlined sentence (above) is that of Mary having sexual intercourse (relations) in order to become pregnant with Jesus. Which means, you do take the position that the Holy Spirit is NOT Jehovah at all ... AND that Jesus was, indeed, Michael the arch-angel, who came down from Heaven as a man. **IF** this is NOT the case, please clarify after I've had time to go over, and respond to, your most recent "questions" email, if you will.

Fred's response continued: Since we know what Jehovah�s Witness don�t believe, we can now discuss what we do believe. The NWT, the primary translation used by JW�s, states in Luke that the angel to Mary.."Holy spirit will overcome you� and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God�s Son." This was the explanation of Mary�s statement, "How this is to be, since I am having no intercourse with a man?" Luke 1:34,35. A woman becoming pregnant with out having sex? It is a miracle that God performed thru his power. He is Almighty and uses his power as he wills it. He does not have to be physically present to perform a miracle. I am sure you agree with that. What does "overcome" mean? We know it does not mean sexual intercourse. Otherwise, it simply means what the text says, she was overcome by God�s holy spirit. The bible does not reveal the technical and biological details as to HOW he performed this miracle.

Bobby's follow up: I do agree with you that God can perform a miracle without actually being "physically" present, because God does NOT have a "physical" body. However, I would not agree with you that God can perform a miracle without "being present". The reason I take such a position is because there is no pl

Word for word Bible discussion between Bobby Richardson and a Jehovah's Witness

Notes and emails leading up to discussion ...

What follows is the dialogue as it has evolved - responses & follow ups inserted